Black Widow (2021)

Em: 00:02:40

Hi, everyone. I'm Em, and welcome to Verbal Diorama, episode 308, Black Widow.

This is the podcast that's all about the history and legacy of movies you know and movies you don't. That has red in her ledger and she'd like to wipe it out. But can you wipe out that much red? Welcome to Verbal Diorama.

Whether you are a brand-new listener to this podcast, whether you are a regular returning listener, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for choosing to listen to this podcast. I am, as always, so happy to have you here for the history and Legacy of Black Widow.

And if you are a regular returning listener, thank you so much for continuing to listen to and support this podcast.

Even if you've only been here for a little bit, whether you've been here for the last six years and over 300 episodes, thank you so much for your support. It genuinely means so much to have you come back to this podcast and hopefully enjoy this podcast enough for you to come back to this podcast.

And of course, having over 300 episodes of a film history podcast means that if I need to take a break, I can rely on some of the archive to fill in the gap. And that's why the archival Superman episodes have been on the feed for the last couple of weeks.

Because I was due to take a week off and then I started to feel a bit poorly so I decided to take another week. But luckily I've got plenty of old episodes in the arsenal to kind of bring out and introduce to people who maybe haven't listened to those episodes.

Previous to the Superman episode was Batman and Robin, which has honestly just done so remarkably well. People love the Joel Schumacher Batmans and I'm so here for it. I wish we could have had more Joel Schumacher Batmans. We didn't know.

But what we do have is a beautiful time capsule of how our superhero movies could have been had it all been different.

But I am back after a couple of weeks off and I'm back with more superheroes on purpose because I re watched Black Widow a couple of months ago and I liked it so much more than I did the first time I saw. Feels a little like the black sheep of the MCU in so many ways.

nt as time has progressed. In: 2010

Since then, she's appeared in seven different Marvel movies, more than any other Avenger except Robert Downey Jr's Iron man and Chris Evans's Captain America. Both of those characters have had three solo films, with Cap technically now having four.

Since Sam Wilson is the new Captain America in addition to screen time, Black Widow is more than just the token woman in the Avengers.

Natasha was the soul of the MCU, a character who delved into her own chequered past, a true pioneer of redemption, carrying the weight of her own sin and her previous actions. Despite all of that, we didn't get a Black Widow solo movie. Fans saw the value of Natasha beyond her skin, tight catsuits and crushing thighs.

And despite a few issues with her storylines over the years, yes, I'm predominantly looking at you. Age of Ultron, female representation within the wider MCU was getting better.

get another female hero till: 2014

d herself to save humanity in: 2019

And once she got her solo movie, Scarlett Johansson sued Disney. Don't worry, they're friends again. Now. Here's the trailer for Black Widow.

Em: 00:08:21

Set between the events of Captain Civil War and Avengers Infinity War, Natasha Romanov is a fugitive for violating the Sokovia Accords and flees to a safe house in Norway, aided by Rick Mason, who gives her mail from her safe house in Budapest. When Natasha is attacked by an unknown assailant who can replicate her every move, she realizes that the attacker wants something in her mail.

She escapes with vials of red gas sent to her by her sister Yelena.

Going back to Budapest, she finds Yelena, who was previously under the control of Dreykov, a man Natasha thought long dead who runs the Black Widow program. The same program she escaped from. Dreykov is kidnapping and brainwashing young girls and women with the gas in those vials.

And together, Natasha and Yelena, along with their adoptive parents, must destroy the Red Room once and for all. Let's run through the cast. We have Scarlett Johansson as Natasha Romanov, AKA Black Widow.

Florence Pugh as Yelena Belova David Harbour as Alexei Shostakov, AKA Red Guardian Ot Fagbenli as Rick Mason, Olga Kurylenko as Antonia Dreykov, AKA Taskmaster William Hurt as Thaddeus Ross Ray Winston as Dreykov, and Rachel Weisz as Melina Vostokoff.

in: 2010

Natasha Romanov, or Natalia Alionovna Romanova, to give her her canonical full name, was an expert spy trained in the Red Room in Russia as a child assassin, later recruited and defected to the United States working for SHIELD alongside her closest friend Clint Barton.

Natasha not only became the only female founding member of the Avengers, her ongoing treatment within the MCU was both widely praised and and widely criticized for several reasons.

in: 1964

in: 1960

According to her backstory, Natasha was taken as a child and subjected to intensive training in espionage, combat, and assassination. The program was designed to create perfect female operatives, with Natasha being one of their most successful graduates.

In the comics, Natasha received a version of the Super Soldier Serum similar to what created Captain America, which slowed her aging process and enhanced her physical capabilities. This explains how she could remain active for decades, having allegedly been active Since World War II in some versions of her history.

in March: 1999

Yelena Belova would also transform into a version of the Super Adaptoid, a human machine hybrid that can copy the powers of the New Avengers.

Natasha, as a comic book hero with no obvious powers except for being smart, strong and capable, meant she had all the attributes needed for a live action version of her character.

n the big screen in the early: 2000

And in: 2004

ired artisan entertainment in: 2003

So they had the Punisher on their books already, but now they also had Danny Rand, AKA Iron Fist, and the Soviet Union's premier spy, Natasha Romanoff, AKA Black Widow.

The Punisher was a financial and critical disappointment, and the planned sequel instead became the reboot Punisher Warzone, with Ray Stevenson replacing Thomas Jane.

at the time. Women. In April: 2004

ing his baby daughter born in: 2004

She's actually named Natasha, but she's named Natasha after the character.

Between: 2003

Flux was the main culprit in: 2005

nsgate dropped Black Widow in: 2006

Hayter wouldn't have to wait very long to see the character in live action, despite his lack of involvement. And then Iron man, that's definitely coming to a future episode.

er the success of iron man in: 2008

However, she was unable to take it due to commitments to her role in Gulliver's Travels. Meanwhile, Scarlett Johansson had met with Jon Favreau and Kevin Feige a year before.

Pre production even started on Iron Man 2 about roles in the forthcoming MCU, one of them being Black Widow, another being the Scarlet Witch.

So when Favreau called Johansson in for a meeting, she dyed her hair red to match Black Widow in the comics, mostly to experiment with the colour, but also hopeful that Favreau would appreciate the sentiment. It turns out that he did, and Johansson felt the Black Widow character resonated with her as a superhero but also as a human being.

She admitted to freaking out when she saw the character's iconic black catsuit and trained hard with trainers on stunts and strength training and retrospectively in publicity for the eventual Black Widow movie. She'd also comment on the sexualized way Black Widow was introduced into the MCU and how they attempted to evolve her beyond that.

In September: 2010

Throughout the: 2000

And it's safe to say that no one at Marvel Studios anticipated how popular Black Widow would become with audiences after the release of Age of Ultron. Johansson revealed that the number of films on her contract had been adjusted since she first signed to match the demand of the character.

By the time: 2014

David Hayter expressed a wish to revive the project he was so passionate about with Marvel, and Kevin Feige was alluding to the fact that the studio would love to see the character explored further.

oman and Elektra and a leaked: 2014

Below are just a few examples. There are more. Thanks Ike. 1. Elektra Marvel Very bad idea and the end result was very, very bad. 2.

Catwoman WBDC Catwoman was one of the most important female characters within the Batman franchise. This film was a disaster. 3. Supergirl DC Supergirl was one of the most important female superhero in Superman franchise.

This movie came out in: 1984

ssed Perlmutter's emails in a: 2014

its acquisition by Disney in: 2009

In: 2015

The restructuring was reportedly due to Feige's frustration of working with Perlmutter and his outdated opinions about casting budgets and merchandising, as well as alleged comments and actions by Perlmutter that were sexist and racist in nature. It's no surprise that Perlmutter was a supporter of the whatsit Dictator in Chief. I think you know who I'm talking about.

Perlmutter's sidelining coincided with a notable increase in Marvel Studios focus on diversity and inclusiveness.

g films like Black Panther in: 2018

Her merchandise was a fraction of what existed for her male counterparts. She had none.

For her debut In Iron Man 2, she did get an action figure for the Avengers, but of the 88 official age of Ultron products, she was only available on 6.

She was infamously replaced from one of her most badass scenes in Age of Ultron, riding her motorcycle through South Korea on the toy version of the bike with Captain America. And this isn't just a Black Widow thing, because Gamora was missing from Guardians Toys too. A Trump supporter being a misogynist? Surely not.

In: 2019

lly fired from the company in: 2023

Natasha was used to bring other characters into stories like meeting Bruce Banner in the Avengers, which is also standout, and meeting t' Challa in Captain Civil War. With the Infinity Saga nearing its end, it made more sense to go to Wakanda than it did to explore Natasha.

And then we got Captain Marvel as the first female led movie in the mcu again because it served the greater purpose of the MCU to introduce Carol at that time and I love that movie so I have no complaints.

dow was coming throughout the: 2010

and she was hired in December: 2017

At that point, Anna Bowden had been hired to be a co director for Captain Marvel, but for Black Widow, Marvel focused on finding a sole female director and met with over 65, including Chloe Zhao, who would go on to direct Eternals, Amma Asante, Coralie Fargate, Kimberly Pierce, Maggie Betts, Lynn Shelton and Lucretia Martell. Scarlett Johansson had approached Kate Shortland personally about potentially directing the movie after seeing her film. Law.

Shortland was hired in July: 2018

e and Thunder a year later in: 2022

Pearson received the sole screenplay credit, with Benson and Schaefer receiving story credits.

The movie was due to be set after civil war and find Natasha alone with the other Avengers scattered or incarcerated and no longer tied to The Avengers or S.H.I.E.L.D.

the main source of inspiration was the TV show the Americans, set during the Cold War about an undercover Russian spy family living in a Washington D.C. suburb.

This setup would introduce Natasha as a child living in the Midwestern United States with her quote unquote family, her mother, father and her younger sister Yelena posing as a traditional all American family until they steal SHIELD intel and have to suddenly flee to Cuba with the young girls separated and forced to the Red Room for training as widows, training that most little girls fail at and are subsequently killed. It is a dark opening to the movie, which isn't that surprising when you have Natasha's inherent darkness and her shame at her past.

Marvel and Pierson had heated conversations about how dark Natasha's story could be, but Pearson successfully argued the case to show Dreykov's daughter, first mentioned by Loki in the Avengers as a primary source of pain and regret for Natasha, and while also fleshing out the Budapest story that both Clint Barton and Natasha had frequently mentioned.

For Natasha's sister, it made sense for this to be Yelena Belova, a longtime associate of Black Widow in the comics, with a complex antagonistic relationship that softened as the characters developed a grudging respect for each other and later stories explored their shared trauma as survivors of the Red Room. Yelena's character was used to explore themes around what Natasha might have become if she hadn't defected.

She represented both Natasha's past and an alternate path, someone who initially embraced the Red Room's ideology rather than rejecting it.

But fundamentally, both Natasha and Yelena lost their innocence, with Yelena suffering more for it for being younger when she was taken from the only family she'd ever known. Now, if you think creating a comic book character makes you super wealthy once they star in a big Marvel movie, you'd be wrong.

To use the character of Yelena, Marvel had to pay her creators, writer Devin Grayson and artist JG Jones, who had both signed special character agreement deals $25,000 for Yelena's use in a theatrical film appearance.

However, buried within the document's small print was language that granted Marvel broad discretion to dramatically lower payments, leading to Marvel only paying them $5,000. It was only after Grayson went to the press that Marvel agreed to pay her the remaining $7,500 it owed her.

And if you don't sign an agreement, you don't get paid at all.

It's why many artists and writers go down the indie route, because they actually get better returns and more creative control that way than they do with big companies like Marvel and dc.

Marvel offered the role of Yelena to Saoirse Ronan, who passed, but then they saw Fighting with My Family, which is episode 248 of this podcast, and Florence Pugh was receiving rave reviews. And isn't that just an apt title for the familial relationships in this movie too?

Pugh was cast in April: 2019

anderson as the young Natasha. Anderson is a fluent Russian speaker, which would come in handy with the scenes filmed in Russian.

Taskmaster was included in early versions of the script as a villain, the Tony Masters version from the comic, but this was changed to be Antonia Drakov to fit the narrative that Dreykov subdues and controls all women, including his daughter, long thought dead by Natasha. Bond girl Olga Kurylenko was cast as Antonia Dreykov with her father Dreykov, played by Ray Winston.

Winston would call the experience soul destroying and after some negative feedback on his performance, he actually wanted to leave the production and have his role recast. However, contractual obligations meant that he had to stick around for reshoots.

May: 2019

Anyway, before we talk about: 2020

taskmaster in the MCU, and in: 2019

But he wasn't, and he's one of very few actors who still haven't been involved with the studio in any way, shape or form, but who knows, maybe soon.

Let's move on to the music though, because Alexandre Desplat was originally announced to be composing the score, but he was replaced in post production by Lorne Balfe. He wrote an original piece in the style of Russian folk music that he used to develop the rest of Natasha's motifs.

As COVID lockdowns were affecting post production, studio recording sessions also began to shut down, but Balfe managed to get the recordings completed on time.

Black Widow is also only one of few Marvel movies that has a pre credits introduction to set up the childhoods of Natasha and Yelena, and it includes a title design by Emmy nominated design lab Perception. The team compiled old photographs, created documents and directed live action footage to chronicle Natasha's past in the Widow program.

While they shot the footage at 8K high resolution, they used a series of custom digital and analog methods to match the aesthetics of 8 millimeter film, 90s digital video and VHS set to a cover of Nirvana Smells Like Teen Spirit by thinkapanga featuring Marlia J, which was suggested by Perception. It is raw, gritty and intentionally somber. This is not your average MCU movie.

This one is set on earth with real people doing nasty real people stuff. And I really love that cover of Smells Like Teen Spirit as well.

scheduled for release in May: 2020

Disney kept that May: 2020

In September: 2020

In late March: 2021

of its planned but postponed: 2020

But in July: 2021

Court documents filed by Johansson detailed that the deal guaranteed an exclusive theatrical release and that her salary for the film was largely tied to box office performance.

Disney issued a statement in response to the suit saying it had no merit whatsoever and that Johansson had shown a, quote, callous disregard for the horrific and prolonged global effect of the COVID 19 pandemic, unquote, that the company claimed they had fully complied with Johansson's contract and that the Disney plus Premiere Access release of the film had significantly enhanced her ability to earn additional compensation beyond the $20 million she had already received.

In response, her agent, Brian Lord, fired back, condemning Disney's response as, quote, shamelessly and falsely accusing Ms. Johansson of being insensitive to the global COVID pandemic, unquote, and accusing the company of leaving artistic and financial partners out of their streaming profits, and denounced the disclosure of Johansson's $20 million earnings as, quote, an attempt to weaponize her success as an artist and businesswoman, as if that was something she should be ashamed of, unquote.

suit to arbitration in August: 2021

Johansson and Disney reached a settlement over the lawsuit a month later, and terms of the settlement were not disclosed.

l only releases to subsequent: 2021

It went to number one in its first week in cinemas.

Movies were being released but not often, and Black Widow was the only major studio release that week because no other studio would want their movie taking on an MCU movie.

Black Widow was out at the Same Time as F9, the Fast Saga, the Boss Baby 2, the Forever Purge, A Quiet Place Part 2 and Cruella the following week Black Widow was dethroned from its number one spot by Space Jam. A new legacy. And it's unfortunate really, because now Black Widow is often mentioned when you hear talk of Marvel's lowest grossing movies.

And that's not untrue. It is one of the lowest. But other Marvel movies didn't come out during a pandemic.

Black Widow was the first movie of Phase 4 and the first to come out during COVID It was followed by Shang Chi and Eternals, which only earned 50 and 20 million dollars more respectively. And they didn't have a simultaneous release on Disney. In fact, both had an exclusive 45 day release in cinemas.

the most ticket Pre sales of: 2021

But that doesn't take into account the Disney Plus Premier Access. It was the first film that Disney revealed.

Premier Access revenue for the film's opening weekend earned $226.2 million globally, which include $80.4 million at the domestic box office, $78.8 million at the international box office, and $67 million in Disney Plus Premier Access global revenue.

When you take the Disney Plus Premier Access into account, Black Widow actually has the third largest opening for an MCU origin movie behind Black Panther and Captain Marvel. It also became the third most pirated film of the pandemic, with over 20 million pirated views.

And it's estimated that this level of piracy cost Disney Approximately $600 million of lost revenue from this movie.

So in a slightly different time period, in a slightly different version of this universe, with no Covid or a slightly different version of this movie that maybe came out several years earlier, this movie could have been absolutely huge for Marvel and could have made a hell of a lot of money. But circumstances Black Widow has a score on rotten tomatoes of 79% with the critical consensus reading.

Black Widow's deeper themes are drowned out in all the action, but it remains a solidly entertaining standalone adventure that's rounded out by a stellar supporting cast. Critics praised Johansson and Pugh as well as its gritty tone and the fact it diversifies the MCU with a high octane espionage thriller.

eceived the reframe stamp for: 2021

While Natasha's story is over and her sacrifice in Endgame still poignant, the MCU moves on because Yelena is still around.

And Yelena is still dealing with her own trauma after losing her family, becoming a mind controlled assassin, finding her sister, getting blipped, coming back to find her sister is dead, becoming a contract killer and almost killing Clint Barton. From a three episode appearance in Hawkeye through to this year's Thunderbolts. Which is great by the way. Really enjoyed that.

vengers Doomsday next year in: 2026

One of the things that stands out the most for me, and seeing how far the MCU particularly has come over its almost 18 years of existence, is Black Widow. I'm talking about the character, not so much the movie, but the movie plays a part.

Natasha Romanoff was for so long the only major female character and with that was projected everything your sole female character needed to be. She needed to be pretty, she needed to be funny, she needed to have trauma but be totally okay with it.

She needed to service the men in the story, she needed to kick ass, she needed to look good doing it. And she needed to have no flaws, nothing visible anyway.

She's Scarlett Johansson, one of the most beautiful women in the world and now the highest grossing lead actor of all time. But Black Widow needed to do this while also being hypersexualized. Johansson has acknowledged this herself. It was almost a prerequisite.

In press for this movie she mentioned how the character was underestimated and undervalued by this lens of the male gaze. In Iron Man 2, Tony Stark says he wants one, and having developed and built this character over her many appearances, Johansson didn't want that.

For Natasha, the era of the femme fatale is over. Compare the introduction of Natasha in Iron Man 2 to the introduction of Yelena.

Yelena is just as physically attractive and fit as Natasha, just as agile and adept with a firearm. But Yelena is allowed to exist, is allowed to be feminine and vulnerable as well as smart and tough.

The whole jabs at Natasha's posing was on set banter between Florence Pugh and Scarlett Johansson that ended up being written into the script because Natasha's early poses were silly. Now this hypersexualization didn't start with the mcu.

It started with her depiction in the comics, but it shows how the MCU has matured and how executives have actually started listening to the actors and the fans. It undoubtedly comes as well from Johansson being an executive producer and having that say in how she wants the character to be depicted.

But I love that she recognized that and that they've chosen to not go that way with Yelena. Yelena can be everything Natasha was, but she doesn't have to be perfect and she doesn't have to service the needs of men.

Yelena has flaws, and this movie allows Natasha to have the same and for her to be finally free of some of her demons before her inevitable end in Endgame. But most importantly, we get a pass for a character that has no future.

Yes, this movie should have come way sooner, but did it cheapen Natasha's death? In many ways, it deepened it. Natasha did what she did for Clint, but she also inadvertently brought back Yelena.

It didn't need to do anything other than tell you more about Natasha to spend more time with her, which is accomplished here. This movie is not here to further the wider mcu, nor was it here to somehow bring Natasha back to life.

It existed to bring us more of a character that we know was dead and to introduce another and to give us Rachel voice. Obligatory mummy reference. It feels sad.

This is the first time I've mentioned Rachel voice, but this movie, there's a lot of other stuff to talk about. Ray Winston may have not enjoyed this movie, but Dreykov is an important tool in Natasha's forgiveness of herself and of her actions.

He is such a monster and hates women so much that even his own daughter is a commodity for him to control. His end is adding no more red to anyone's ledger.

His end is freeing all the widows, including Antonia Dreykov, from the evil clutches of a man who sees women as nothing more than controllable killing machine. These women are now free to live their lives as they see fit. They're given their humanity back, their rights back, and their autonomy back.

much more now than it did in: 2021

Millions of women who are being forced against their will to use their bodies in ways that they would not consent to had they had the means to acquire reproductive rights services, not just abortions, but general reproductive health care, including contraception. Cervical screenings and STI testing.

The widows in this movie are vessels too brainwashed to do the bidding of Dreykov until their bodies can't do it anymore. They are forced by a man to use their bodies in ways they would not otherwise do.

And in a post Roe v. Wade world, this screams so much of protecting women's bodily autonomy and giving a woman the right to choose because these women would not otherwise choose this life. They were young girls kidnapped from families, forced to become sterilised and forced to become killers.

Natasha and Jelena's ultimate quest to free these women is a powerful statement that it's every woman's responsibility to be there for other women.

And that resonated so much with me as a woman and as a supporter of women that for Natasha's final appearance in the mcu, she's no longer serving the men, but serving the women. And then in Endgame, she's serving everyone. Natasha has no future, but she now has a past and it's remarkably soulful, bittersweet, funny and tragic.

And we finally know what happened in Budapest. But most importantly, Natasha died knowing she was loved by her family and her family. And she had a great vest with so many pockets.

Thank you for listening. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts on Black Widow and thank you for your continued support of this podcast.

If you want to get involved and help this podcast grow and reach more people, you could tell your friends and family about this podcast or about this episode. You can leave a ideally five star rating or review wherever you found this podcast. And you can also find me and follow me on social media.

I am at verbaldiorama cross social media where you can like post, comment on posts, share post, reply to posts, DM me, all of the above. I am more than happy to hear from you and to hear your thoughts as well.

And if you like this episode on Black Widow, you might also like the following previous episodes that I've done around this character and there are quite a few episode 72 Captain America the Winter Soldier which still remains the best version of Natasha that's ever been put to screen, even including this movie.

Because I love Natasha in the Winter Soldier Episode 73 Captain Civil War Episode 97 the Avengers Episode 98 Age of Ultron Episode 99 Avengers Infinity War and wouldn't you guess Episode 100 Avengers Endgame. As always, give me feedback, let me know what you think of those episodes.

And for the next episode we are going from black to red and another spin off solo female led movie based somewhat on Marvel comics. But this one's a little different because in the 80s, fantasy movies were a big deal and so were sword and sorcery movies.

Red Sonja of Rogatino would later become the inspiration for Marvel Comics Chainmail Bikini Warrior Red Sonja and after Conan the Barbarian and Conan the Destroyer, Red Sonja would take place in the same fictional universe with some of the same actors, but in different roles. It was a financial and critical flop. And yet a reboot has been talked about for decades.

And coincidentally, completely coincidentally, I did not plan this. It's coming out at about the same time as the next episode of this podcast, which is on the history and legacy of Red Sonja.

So please join me next week for an episode on Red Sonja. If you enjoy what I do for this podcast or you simply want to support an indie podcaster who does all of this on her own.

If you have some spare change and you want to financially contribute to the upkeep of this podcast, you're under no obligation because this podcast is free and it will always be free. However, there are a couple of ways you can help if you have the means to.

You can make a one off donation verbaldiorama.com tips or you can subscribe to the patreon@verbaldiorama.com patreon all money made goes back into this podcast by paying for things like software, subscriptions, website hosting or new equipment.

Huge thank you to the amazing patrons of this podcast to Simon, Laurel, Derek, Kat, Andy, Mike, Luke, Michael, Scott, Brendan, Ian, Lisa, Sam, Jack, Dave, Stuart, Nicholas, so Kev, Heather, Danny, Stu, Brett, Bennett, M, Xenos, Sean, Ryno, Philip K, Adam, Elaine, Kyle and Aaron.

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Please feel free to get in touch if you wish. And finally.

Em: 00:51:35

Bye.