Hocus Pocus

Em: 00:01:47

Hi, everyone. I'm Em, and welcome to verbal diorama, episode 317, Hocus Pocus. This is the podcast that's all about the history and legacy of movies.

You know, and maybe you don't. That puts a spell on you. And now you're mine? You can't stop the things I do? I ain't lying. Been 317 episodes right down to the day.

Now the witch is back and there's hell to pay? I put a spell on you, and now you're mine. Welcome to Verbal Diorama.

Whether you're a regular returning listener, whether you're an irregular returning listener, whether you're a brand-new listener to this podcast. Thank you for being here. Thank you for choosing to listen to this podcast. I'm so happy to have you here for the history and legacy of Hocus Pocus.

Huge thank you to the regular returning listeners. Without you, I would not still be doing what I'm doing for the last almost seven years now. It's crazy. Huge thank you for your support.

It genuinely means so much.

And the traditional spooky season on Verbal Diorama Soft launched with the devil's advocate a few episodes ago, but since then launched properly for Candyman and last week, Wes Craven's new nightmare. And now something more family friendly.

is is a movie that flopped in: 1993

The spell just took a while to affect us all. Here's the trailer for Hocus Pocus.

Em: 00:05:31

In: 1693

years to: 1993

On Halloween night, his parents force him to go trick or treating with his younger sister Danny. While their parents go to a party, Max, Dany and Alison decide to go to the house of the Sanderson sisters, which is now a derelict museum.

Max taunts the legendary curse and despite being a virgin, decides to light the black flame candle, bringing back Winifred, Sarah and Mary Sanderson. Let's run through the cast of this movie.

We have Bette Midler as Winifred Sanderson, Sarah Jessica Parker as Sarah Sanderson, Kathy Najimy as Mary Sanderson Omri Katz as Max Dennison Thora Birch as Dani Dennison, Vinessa Shaw as Allison Watts, Charles Rockett as David Denison, Stephanie Faracy as Jennifer Dennison, Sean Murray as Thackerey Binx, Jason Marsden as the voice of Thackerey Binks and Doug Jones as Billy Butcherson. Hocus Pocus has a screenplay by Mick Garris and Neil Cuthbert, story by David Kirschner and Mick Garris, and was directed by Kenny Ortega.

And Hocus Pocus is a beloved Halloween classic. A movie that is watched repeatedly every October by families all over the world.

out in the crowded summer of: 1993

The summer of Jurassic park, the summer of the Firm, the summer of Robin Hood, Men in Tights, which is still the biggest ever episode of this podcast. Don't ask me why, it just is.

But how did Hocus Pocus go from a box office disappointment to not only a Halloween classic, universally beloved by families, but also a piece of queer cinema becoming inspiration for drag queens across the world? Hocus Pocus started life as a bedtime story that David Kirshner, writer and producer, would make up for his daughters.

He would tell them that the neighbor's black cap contained the soul of a young boy who had been cursed by witches to live in feline form and whose children loved the slightly spooky stories. So he created this trio of witches.

Kirschner is no stranger to this podcast and not a horror, because he was also the guy who created the first images of Chucky from Child's Play. That's episode 274 of this podcast from last October.

derson sisters, hanged in the: 1600

That little Jewish mouse story had led to working with Steven Spielberg on the movie of that story, which was An American Tale, a movie that may or may not be coming to this podcast very soon.

Kirschner's Halloween short story, which was called Halloween House, was published in Muppet Magazine, and he developed that into the first draft of a screenplay. A meeting was scheduled between Kirschner and Jeffrey Katzenberg, who worked at Disney at the time.

He was the guy who'd famously declined Kirschner's idea for An American Tale, which had ended up at Amblin with the famous quote, who wants to watch a movie about a Jewish mouse? I mean, it turned out that quite a lot of people actually wanted to watch a movie about a Jewish mouse, because An American Tale ended up huge.

Kirschner went all out to impress Katzenberg for Halloween House with a conference room filled with a cauldron of dry ice, candy corn, pumpkins and a broom, a mop and a vacuum cleaner suspended from the ceiling. Katzenberg was not impressed with the theatrics, but he was impressed when Kirschner mentioned that Halloween was a billion dollar business.

Maybe that was something Disney might be interested in. And of course, Katzenberg wanted a slice of that pumpkin pie.

Now, memories differ on this particular scenario, because while Kirschner insists the pitch was to Katzenberg and Disney. Mick Garris says the pitch was to Steven Spielberg.

Both David Kirschner and Mick Garris were in the room, but Kirchner would insist his version of events was correct because Kathleen Kennedy, Spielberg's producing partner, was called out Kirschner for hurting Spielberg's feelings by pitching to Katzenberg instead of the guy who gave him his big break with an American tail. And Spielberg took it as a personal slight.

Kirschner would obviously sell his idea to Disney, and he did want Spielberg involved in the movie because the guy had a way with magical kids fantasy movies in the 80s.

But Disney and Amblin weren't really best buds and they were each other's competition for that lucrative family market and neither wanted to be in business with the other. And so it turned out that An American Tale would be more keen to the success of Hocus Pocus than anyone would ever realize.

Now, Amblin and Disney did have somewhat of a relationship in the late 80s. They had joint custody of who Framed Roger Rabbit with each company owning half.

er that movie was released in: 1988

Kirchner's original idea was mixed with Mick Garris more grown up, more frightening, more tween based horror script, which included the creation of Billy Butcherson.

And Garris's darker tone gradually become more comedic thanks to co writer Neil Cuthbert and about a dozen uncredited writers who took a stab at the script for Hocus Pocus over an eight year period. While the movie sat in development hell, it went from a tween horror to having teenage protagonists to having two teenagers and one child.

The title Hocus Pocus came thanks to co writer Neil Cuthbert. He crafted the line from Max it's just a bunch of hocus pocus as an explanation for him being the virgin who lights the black flame candle.

A candle no one thought to get rid of in 300 years, saying that I still have some Yankee candles that are about 10 years old that still have life in them. So who knows? And development hell is where the newly minted Hocus Pocus sat for about eight years until Bette Midler came along.

Winifred Sanderson had been written with Cloris Leachman in mind.

Leachman, who died in: 2021

But if you're going to replace Cloris Leachman, you replace her with three time Emmy winning, three time Grammy winning, two time Tony winning, four time Golden Globe winning Bachelor nominated and double Academy Award nominee, The Divine Ms. M. Bette Midler. She's only an Oscar away from an EGOT. Bette Midler was a big name for Jeffrey Katzenberg under the Disney owned Touchstone Pictures banner.

s with starring roles in: 1986

er to a three picture deal in: 1987

But the early 90s would be a small bump in the road for Middler's run of more or less constant success with Stella, Scenes From a Mall and For the Boys, all struggling either critically or commercially.

anged for Bette Midler was in: 1986

And so the idea of taking on something like Hocus Pocus was a way to diversify her roles and give her daughter something she could watch. And as soon as Bette Midler signed on the dotted line to play Winifred, everything just fell into place.

Midler essentially greenlit the movie and Midler fully committed to the bit for Winifred.

made his directorial debut in: 1992

His sophomore directorial effort was Hocus Pocus and he'd worked with Bette Midler before.

And her being involved was enough for Ortega to drop everything and say yes, and with Ortega being a choreographer and him knowing Bette Midler could hold the tune, he's the one responsible for the I put a spell on you scene. It was something David Kirschner questioned in the middle of a dramatic chase to stop the action for a musical number.

But Ortega insisted and it's become one of the most well known scenes in the movie with Bette Midler going full divine, Miss Anne and Kathy Najimi and Sarah Jessica Parker as her backup singers. Based on Midler's real life backup singers, the Harletts, the song was specifically arranged for Midler.

Marc Shaiman, who wrote the Broadway hit Hairspray and worked with Midler on Beaches, arranged the song specifically for her. He wanted it to sound like a Midler concert opening number.

ng the rights to the original: 1956

She would regularly perform her hocus pocus rendition of I put a spell on you on tour wearing Winifred's dress, wig and signature makeup. Going back to Midler, fully committed to the bit for Winifred because she really genuinely did.

Speaking of backup singers and her fellow sisters, Kathy Najimy fresh off of Sister act, the same sister at the Midler turned down the fears of her public image being tarnished by playing a nun. That story's in episode 295 of this podcast. She plays the shy sister Mary.

Rosie o' Donnell had been originally approached, but she turned it down, not wanting to play a witch.

Najimy didn't want to play a stereotypical witch because she fully believes in white witches and she discussed Mary's character at length with Kenny Ortega, concerned about witches who wanted to kill children. But ultimately the bet middle of it all was the reason she signed on.

Najimy came up with Mary's crazy hairstyle and crooked mouth which she uses to help smell children. Sarah Jessica Parker was unaware of her links to Salem when she took on the role of younger sister Sarah.

g sundry act of witchcraft in: 1692

Elwell was accused of bewitching Mary Fitch, the young sister of a deacon, claiming that Esther Elwell used her spirit to torment Mary, who later died due to this alleged bewitching.

Elwell's case never went to trial because the Court had banned the use of spectral evidence the previous month, which gave the prosecutors little evidence to go on. Esther Elwell was released from prison by the Governor, Sir William Phipps, free to live out the remainder of her life.

Thirteen generations later, Sarah Jessica Parker was born. Parker didn't know about Esther Elwell until appearing on Who Do You Think You Are?

In: 2010

Most of the cast did their own flying stunts, including the then 10 year old Thora Burch as Dani Dennison, and Midler would make sure the young actor was kept entertained during long shoots. Birch, who would go on to become a cult favourite actor in her own right, learned what a virgin was on set because she was 10.

Of course she didn't know. She would love the entire experience, but especially the Halloween party scene.

Omri Katz, who I had a huge crush on from his Eerie Indiana days, I absolutely loved that show and it was bizarrely on British tv. I think it was on BBC too. Katz would also bring the voice of Thackeray Binks with him from Erie, Indiana, Jason Marsden.

Because the pair were friends, he would overdub Sean Murray's performance as the human version of Binks, which wasn't a particularly easy task, as well as voice the cat version of Binks, which also wasn't particularly easy for him to match his mouth to the cat's mouth. But Omri Katz wasn't the first choice for the role of Max. It was originally offered to a young actor who wowed the producers, Leonardo DiCaprio.

DiCaprio declined the role to instead film What's Eating Gilbert Grape, a performance that would get him his first Oscar nomination at just 20 years old, which is potentially something that hocus Pocus could never have given him.

Hiring a bunch of actors who could do comedy and actors who could give each character a bit of nuance meant the script was updated to include more physical comedy. Bette Midler was dedicated to using period accurate curse words. She also had a say in what she wore.

Not wanting to go for the traditional all black witches gal with a black hat, and the costumes here are down to Hollywood costume designer Mary Vogt. Vogt worked with Kenny Ortega, who, unlike other directors, wanted the weird and the outrageous.

Taking inspiration from storybook illustrator Arthur Rackham, Spanish artist Goya and his series Los Capricos and Fairy Tales, Vogt worked with each of the main three actors to build their costumes.

Bette Midler had already started to have red hair, and so Vogt suggested she wear green with a purple accent, along with symbols on her robe from the rune alphabet and Stonehenge. Sarah Jessica Parker, with her trademark long blonde hair, looked like a Disney princess. And so Vogt designed her dress in line with Sleeping Beauty.

And Kathy Najimy, with her dark hair and generally tasked with mixing the potions, was designed as a witch banker.

But unlike the specially designed costumes for the witches, most of the Halloween party scene costumes were from the Walt Disney costume department, because by that point, the movie had run out of money and just needed any costume available, which is why the Supremes appear at the party. It was also useful because it was a Disney movie. There was no need to worry about rights to costumes or characters.

For some time after Hocus Pocus initial release, you could rent out the actual costumes worn by Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker, and Kathy Najimy. But then the movie grew in popularity and this practice quickly stopped.

Billy Butcherson was based on Vogt's childhood storybook drawings of Ichabod Crane, and he would iconically be played by Doug Jones. Jones would have one single foam latex prosthetic on his face and neck.

It was so thin and delicate, it needed two makeup artists to apply it every day. With his mouth stitches glued into the facial prosthetic between shots. The stitches were disconnected so Jones could eat, drink and talk.

He also wore foam latex gloves which allowed additional length to his fingertips, which were sculpted with long nails. As well as wearing a spandex suit and his costume with visible zombie arms and legs.

They also cast his teeth so they could build a special rig inside his mouth to house moths and dust. His pre cut mouth stitches would be sliced open by Jones with a blunt knife across his mouth. Open his mouth up and cough up some dust and live moths.

The mouth rig was essentially a latex pocket attached between upper and lower dentures, which completely blocked his throat with a small hole at the back so he could puff air through it. The animal wrangler would place several live moths in the pocket with tweezers under the supervision of a representative from the Humane Society.

And then the stitches were glued shut. And this whole process took a few takes for Doug Jones to get right.

But the finished article is so authentically brilliant because they are genuine live moths coming out of his mouth. A bit like a couple of episodes ago, I was talking about Tony Todd and the bees in Candyman.

This is A very similar thing, Although there was no fear of Doug Jones getting stung by moths. More was actually shot of the witches together getting up to various acts of mischief. And many of these scenes ended up in the early trailers.

But when it came to putting the film together, it was deciding to focus more on the children characters and Binx the cat than the witches. Speaking of Binx, he was a mix of real cats, animatronics and very early cgi.

The crew at Alterion, a Los Angeles based special effects studio, built the animatronic Binx. In addition to the hero Animatronic Binx, there were floppy cats, posable standing cats, and inflatable versions of Binx.

Rhythm and Hues Studion created the CGI version of Binx and ensured his facial features would resemble a real cat. They went to great lengths to make him realistic with sharp fangs to make his feline features look real.

However, the producers felt he might be too scary for young audiences, so they scaled his fangs back to make him seem friendlier. The same animatronic Binx was reused for the TV series Sabrina the Teenage Witch, who also has a black cat called Salem.

Salem, who was also played by real cats, was the only character other than Sabrina herself to appear in all 163 episodes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch. Hocus Pocus is the first time a CG skeleton was applied over a real cat's head and then using the mouse movement to mix in with the animatronics.

And it still looks really fantastic to this day. Binx the cat is one of the greatest cat characters I think that's ever been put to film because he looks so realistic.

Of the real cats that were used for Binx, there were many different cats, but they all did different things. Some cats were good at swiping, some cats were good at running, some cats were good at sitting still.

And so different cats were used for different areas of the movie.

October: 1992

The opening shots of: 1600

Tours of the village are apparently available during the summer, and the village is open throughout the day on Saturdays and Sundays through the month of October. While you can peek inside the village's houses, none of them were used for the interior scenes of the movie.

he school closed to pupils in: 1992

The graveyard near Max's home where he gets accosted by bullies was filmed at Old Burial Hill in Marblehead, and Max and Danny's family home is a real house on Ocean Avenue, Salem.

The rest of the interior scenes were filmed on sound stages on the Disney Studios lot in Burbank, California, including a full sized house with a working water wheel and a graveyard set built on Soundstage two, where the production designers even got the smells right using foliage, dry leaves and mulch. And of course, the Sanderson Sisters are enduring gay icons. They are theatrical, campy, witty, fantastical, dramatic and impeccably dressed.

Midler is and always has been a gay icon. Sarah Jessica Parker is Carrie Bradshaw. Sister Act also has its own queer fans who know of Kathy Najimy.

And no one embraces the Sandersons more than the queer community and the drag queens. It's just a bunch of Hocus Pocus is the longest running Hocus Pocus drag tribute show.

They were shut down by the fire marshal after 500 people tried to attend their 10 minute bar show and the performance ballooned into a several show affair. Now it's an hour long production with sets and numbers one that draws at least 2,000 visitors annually.

Drag performer Ginger Minj, a longtime fan of the film, created and stars in Hocus Pocus Live, a theatrical production with original songs and performances that celebrates the Sanderson Sisters. Bette Midler has even given her blessing for the show, encouraging Ginger Minj to continue.

The popularity of the Sandersons as drag inspiration is so widespread that Hocus Pocus 2 even features Ginger Minj, Kahmora hall and Kornbread as Sanderson's sister's impersonators in the film. I'm not really sure how I can segue from that into this. There is literally no way. But it is time for the obligatory Keanu reference of this episode.

And if you're new here and you don't know what that is, it's why I try and link the movie that I'm featuring with Keanu Reeves for no reason other than he is the best of men and he would never have accused the Sanderson Sisters of witchcraft. And this is a really fun obligatory Keanu reference actually, because the reference is a quote from a movie and the quote is she's a goddamn witch.

She's putting spells on every damn body in town. That is said by Keanu Reeves as the character Donnie Barksdale in the Gift, directed by Sam Raimi.

It is a movie that I have not seen, so I don't know if there are actually any witches in that movie, but it is directed by Sam Raimi, so surely there's some sort of spooky connection. Anyway, I thought that was a nice little reference for Keanu to be mentioning witches and spells.

You'll remember from my episode of Super Mario Bros. That the song Almost Unreal by Swedish pop duo Roxette was originally meant to be included in this movie soundtrack, not Super Mario Brothers.

It's one of my favorite little pieces of movie trivia in that a band can try and get a song in a movie by putting the title of the movie in the song, and yet the song ends up in a completely different movie. I highly rate Super Mario Brothers, by the way.

That is episode 261 of this podcast James Horner was originally slated to score Hocus Pocus, but he became unavailable at the last minute. David Kirschner then suggested John Debney, but due to his lack of experience with working on a major motion picture, Disney turned him down.

But it was thanks to Kirchner's persistence that Debney would be the perfect choice that he was finally given the opportunity to be the composer. He created and produced the entire score for Hocus Pocus in two weeks and later went on to win a New Composer Award.

James Horner would come back to write Sarah's Theme, sung by Sarah Jessica Parker. It's more commonly known as Come Little Children, allegedly as an apology to Kirshner.

But of course, despite all of this, the release of this movie is kind of where this movie goes a little bit downhill. But it doesn't matter when your movie releases if no one knows it's coming.

And the marketing campaign for Hocus Pocus was almost non existent except for a set visit by Entertainment Tonight and the three Sanderson sisters appearing individually on the Today show with Katie Couric to support the film the week it came out.

July: 1993

released during the summer of: 1993

r Halloween themed project in: 1993

Disney didn't want to compete with itself, and ultimately it was decided that the Nightmare Before Christmas could work as either a Halloween or a Christmas movie. So it made sense to release that in October. Despite David Kirschner lobbying the studio for an October release of Hocus Pocus, it fell on deaf ears.

Hocus Pocus was released during the summer school holidays with the hope it would still be around by October. Kirchner recalled being literally in tears when he found out Hocus Pocus would be competing with Steven Spielberg's Jurassic juggernaut.

July: 1993

It also came out the same week as Free Willy, which opened at fifth, and both were competing for that lucrative family market. Free Willy would do better.

Jumping in its second week, literally Free Willy jumping with Hocus Pocus, then Moving down to eight, Hocus Pocus would be out of the top 10 by its third week. Bette Midler has been very vocal about her own love for Hocus Pocus, repeatedly calling Winifred one of her favorite roles in her extensive career.

But in the immediate aftermath of the movie hitting cinemas, it may have been a slightly different story because reportedly after the lukewarm reception to its initial release, Midler wasn't very happy with the bad reviews. But as time progressed, the critical reaction to the movie improved.

People were starting to see it at Halloween, and maybe Midler now sees the love people have for the movie and for Winifred Sanderson.

It then got a DVD release in: 2002

That's $1 million every year.

Hocus Pocus is a staple of three forms, 31 nights of Halloween programming, and the kids who grew up with it in the 90s are now parents themselves and sharing the movie with their own children. On its $28 million budget, Hocus Pocus would gross $39.5 million worldwide.

th anniversary in: 2023

idn't surface until the early: 2010

When David Kirshner and his writing partner first pitched the sequel to Disney's feature film division, Disney declined it after sitting on it for six months. Kirschner was determined though and asked for permission to pitch the movie elsewhere.

Disney agreed and Freeform Worldwide, a Disney subsidiary, agreed to make it, but after four or five months in development at Freeform, Disney Channel took over the project and it eventually would land at Disney plus.

The original idea for a sequel continued the story with Salem's next generation of teens, including Max and Alison's 17 year old daughter Poppy, who has her own encounter with the Sanderson sisters. And this was the plot when it was announced as a free form TV movie.

But obviously that's not the movie we ended up with, and while Vanessa Shaw, Thora Birch and Omri Katz had all previously expressed interest in returning for a sequel, the only returning stars in Hocus Pocus 2 are Bette Midler, Sarah Jessica Parker and Kathy Njimmy as the three Sanderson sisters and Doug Jones as Billy Butcherson.

September: 2022

A second sequel is currently in production, but fundamentally the conclusion of this story is that over three decades later, the people involved in Hocus Pocus love it as much as the fans do, and the fans really, really love it.

It's remarkable that a movie can find a new audience and become a fan favorite decades after those first fans like me really loved it, and it's been fueled by many things nostalgic reminiscing Halloween becoming more of an international holiday, and, of course, the queerness of it all. I watched this movie all the time as a kid, so to me, this was always a Halloween movie, and I had no idea it wasn't a big hit.

I'll admit my fondness for it over time has subsided a little, but I respect the hell out of anything that can find an audience over time and anything that can bring quite this much joy to Halloween. Bette Midler's performance of I Put a spell on you is legendary and well worth a rewatch on YouTube.

In: 2018

And it's even more incredible, really, when you realize that there is a dark heart to Hocus Pocus. Some of the best family movies do have them.

This is a movie that shows hanging, shows witches sucking the life force from children, effectively killing children. But it also shows a part of history that has become sanitized. Women being accused of witchcraft was another way to subjugate women.

And these sisters, all unmarried, were likely already on the fringes of society before witchcraft was even considered. The irony of all of this, of course, is that the original Salem witches didn't actually do any witchcraft at all. They were just accused of it.

sisters feel right at home in: 1993

If anything, the fact that they've still got the same career goals they had 300 years ago is something to be admired.

They are so focused on killing children and recapturing their youth and beauty because they know that these days, that's more desired than it ever has been. Most people need a plastic surgeon. They just need the life essence of a child. Comme CI comme sa. There's also the virgin of it all.

In movies, virgins are depicted by young women, and it's the young woman who has to be sacrificed. But instead of having Allison or Dani light the candle, the movie has monks do the deed.

Depictions of male virginity in movies and TV is still exceedingly rare, and Hocus Pocus may be one of the only ones aimed at a young audience that does this, that doesn't frame it, that virginity is something that you have to lose. Max is allowed to display traits of sensitivity and inexperience. His virginity isn't played as a shameful thing.

It's not something he's fighting to rid himself of like American Pie.

But it is so very 90s in that virginity is something that can do something, because virginity is a social construct, and this idea of purity has always been something that has been used to subjugate women. One of the things I really love about this movie is the familial relationships that are at the core between a brother and a sister team.

Except these brother and sister Teams are 300 years apart.

Thackery Binx couldn't save his sister Emily, but Max can save Dani, and he sacrifices himself, or at least attempts to, so Danny doesn't suffer Emily's fate. And it's a really sweet thing to see, especially in a movie where it's very clear that this particular brother and sister don't always get on.

But fundamentally, Max loves his sister and Danny loves Max.

This was also the rare family move that featured women front and center, as well as women of different ages, different body types, and women that could be all things menacing, sexy and funny, but also the power and loyalty of sisters and the differences between sisters. Their bond is unbreakable even when Winifred is annoyed at Mary's idiocy or Sarah having an affair with Billy Butcherson.

Sisters before Misters Women don't need to be constantly likable in our media, but Mostly whether you're 30 or 300, this is a movie about never conforming and never fitting in. This is a movie about embracing who you are. The strange, the weird, the queer, the flamboyant. And if you're an evil witch, well, embrace that too.

Thank you for listening. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts on Hocus Pocus. And thank you for your continued support of this podcast.

If you want to help this podcast grow and reach more people, you could leave a rating or review wherever you found this episode. You can retweet or like posts on social media.

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I actually mentioned him a little bit earlier in this episode.

rector, but back in the early: 1980

That movie was in: 1981

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So if you're listening and you've always wanted to get in touch, I promise not to put a spell on you because of all the witches working I'm the best and finally

Em: 00:47:53

Bye.